Question trident 300 hardware decision queries

[sanketss84]

Printer Model

Voron Trident 300

Cooling Type

Stealthburner

Hi Everyone,

coming from a Ender 3 S1 Pro (almost 9 months usage). Completely new to building Vorons but have been reading and watching stuff to educate myself on building one.

Planning on a Voron Trident 300x300x250 with stealth burner using BTT SB using CAN , BTT Knomi v2.0 Touch support. Want to keep the idea open for a Tridex upgrade if possible on this machine.

Right now I am struggling to understand a few thing and have these questions.

1. Can I use a Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ or do I need a Pi 4 ?

• the reason I prefer the Pi 3 Model B+ is I wont need a heatsink to cool.
• I have a Pi 4 and heats up a lot where as my Pi 3 Model B runs for hours without any active cooling or heatsink

2. which BTT Octopus to buy and what advantage does one have over the other ?

• Octopus Pro v1.0 STM32F446ZE
• Octopus Pro v1.1 STM32H723ZE
• Octopus Max EZ STM32H723ZET6

my understanding/imagination

• the H723 is faster compared to F446
• are EZ slots for steppers a better design and thermal dissipation compared to traditional pin based steppers ?

3. which stepper drivers and why and what's the difference between these ?

• TMC2209
• TMC2208 UART
• TMC5160T Pro

my understanding/imagination

• is it just that one supports more voltage range over the other
• I am just lost here what is the benefit of one above the other and what to pick here

4. does the BTT Octopus support TMC2240 and also is that an option to consider for stepper driver ?

5. which BTT EBB SB variant to pick and what are the differences , also does this choice base on what stepper drivers I pick ?

• EBB SB2209
• EBB SB2240
• EBB SB2209 CAN V1.0（RP2040）

6. if I pick the BTT Octopus Max EZ then

• do I get to skip BTT U2C v2.1 CAN Adapter
• can I directly connect the CAN based stealth burner hardware directly with BTT Max EZ

7. Also I decided to pick the octopus series over manta series as I want to keep my Pi separate and not mount it on the controller board

• Is the btt octopus pro / max ez a better board compared to btt manta m8p series

8. which is the better bed leveling mechanism for trident

• clicky probe
• voron tap , which iteration of the design to pick.
• something else

I know these are a lot of question so do answer which ever ones you can as per your convenience.
any help is really appreciated.
thank you.

 

[Sanity Agathion]

Hi, do you plan on self-sourcing the whole build or buying a kit? Meaning if you will be buying it component by component, or get a kit or BOM in a box, where you print ABS/ASA parts and assemble. If you buy a kit, you usually receive everything you need (except plastic parts) to assemble and make it functional. You will usually receive Octopus (Pro) with TMC 2209s drivers, optionally some form of Pi (Raspberry, BTT Pi), in case of Magic Phoenix kits also CAN and Tap.

1. You can use RPi 3, although it seems to be that Pi 4 offers better stability for CAN setup too. You will put heatsing and should have skirt fans blowing over electronics in any case.

2. Either Octopus will work. CPU clock speed on MCU does not matter there at all when you use Klipper. If you plan on staying on 24V only for powering motors, regular Octopus without Pro will do just fine. Octopus Pro supports addition of second PSU for running motors at higher voltages. 48V for 5160s or 36V for 2240s. Other options are BTT Manta M8P, I recommend running it with RPi CM4.

That being said - I suggest you take a look at LDO Leviathan board. It has built in 5x 2209 drivers and 2x 5160s drivers with optional input for higher voltage to power up AB motors. Pi sits nicely on top of it for smaller footprint.

3. It depends what MCU you pick. With Leviathan that's solved for you, With Octopuses, it will depend if you have sockets for stepstick or EZ drivers. With EZ drivers you are limited to only what's in that format. In any case, go with 2209s at least, they are well known and supported. They support stallguard which 2208s don't.

4. Yes it supports those.

5. SB2209 if you insist on crimping teeny tiny JST connectors though they finally offer pre-crimped pigtails that you solder onto existing wires. SB2209 with RP2040 has larger connectors but may withstand only up to 85 degrees before shutting down, some cooling will be needed.
Take a look into SB2040 from Mellow. In the foreseeable future, USB toolhead board instead of CAN will be available, so you won't have to mess around with setting up CAN anymore.

6. That's up to you. In general, using some form of USB to CAN adapter seems to be more stable and reliable option now.

7. Bot will work and suppurt whatever is needed for Trident. Manta has support for hardware PWM fans with RPM monitoring. You will be able to use silent 60 mm Noctuas for your skirt fans or Sunon 5015s for your Nevermore.

8. Tap seems to be solid option for good first layers. use printed R8 version, or CNC tap of Vitalii design. Avoid CF taps from Aliexpress, and Chaotic labs both v1 and v2 are... ehh. If Klicky Probe, get Klicky PCB version with D2F switches.

Ditch Knomi, it's totally unneeded for toolhead. It restricts airflow, and reading what's there, much less trying to use touch input when tooolhead is zooming around at 250 mm/s does not make any sense. Buy it only to mount it on skirt, or on stand for your desk to monitor print remotely.

 

[sanketss84]

Firstly thank you so much for taking the time to answer all my queries. Though I will go through all your replies patiently tomorrow as it’s pretty late here. I have a few connecting queries for sure.

I will be self sourcing the parts and gradually build the trident. I do not have access to kits from well known manufacturers easily where I stay and will have to import them. However, I do have access to a trident kit but the hardware choices in that kit are not aligned with everything I need for my build.

 

[sanketss84]

From the above reply this is my understanding so far
1. Pi4 is a better choice over Pi3
2. BTT Octopus Non-Pro / Pro with all 2209 Stepper Drivers is more than enough to run a Trident with a Stealth Burner

I have the following connecting questions and dont fully understand it yet.

1. why do we need to run motor at higher voltages, is it for more speed or is there something more to it ?
1.1 if it’s speed is the speed in XYZ axis movement motors and also in Extruder Motors ?
1.2 how does one power feed 48V into the octopus , I mean how do the power rails plug into the octopus , is it two power supplies or just one ?

2. LDO Leviathan has 2 x 5160s for higher voltage to power up AB motors , can you explain the logic and elaborate more on why this design decision ?

3. Octopus Pro supports STEP/DIR, UART, SPI mode for stepper drivers
- the TMC2209 interfaces using STEP/DIR and UART
- the TMC2240 interfaces using SPI
- the TMC5160 Pro interfaces using SPI, SD mode

whats the difference in these interfaces is one better than other in any way ?

4. is CAN just a stop gap arrangement to future USB based connection to toolhead ?

5. when you say "Manta has support for hardware PWM fans with RPM monitoring" are you talking about four pin connector for FAN5 and FAN6 connector on M8P v2.0 where as Octopus has all 2 pin fan connectors

5.1 is there a way to add a pwm controller fan to the trident build keeping the octopus as the controller board of choice using a (daughter board fan controller with pwm pins) of sorts and can that be interfaced with pi using klipper ?

6. the octopus has 5v 12v 24v as selectable fan voltages , what is an ideal voltage fan choice to get and why ?

7. what makes a cnc fan different from a normal fan ?

 

[Sanity Agathion]

1. Technically RPi 3 is sufficient, but for some tasks like if you have cameras, less problematic CAN communication, fast motion with high microsteps etc. Pi 4 is better.

2. Yes, it's the de-facto default.

1. Motors running at higher voltages allow for more speed and accelerations. There's also chance they will run cooler (less current).
1.1 For VORONs, which are CoreXY printers, only XY (or in our terminology A and B) motors and steppers are upgraded. Z motors very rarely, and I am not sure there is such need for upgrading extruder to higher voltages just yet.
1.2 You need second PSU with 48V, and MCU has separate input for motor power. You usually configure with jumpers where does the board take power from to power motors - common 24V or separate PSU for motors.

2. Those TMC5160 Pro drivers are used for AB motors, which move toolhead around. They support higher voltages, on paper up to 60V, real value depends on rest of electronics on the driver and the board; in case of Leviathan up to 48V. Rest are commonly used TMC2209s running on 24V, which is sufficient for rest of the system (Z and E).

3. It's just a different form of communication. UART uses Transmit and Receive pair, SPI is a serial bus. In our use-case for motors, it does not really matter which one is used. Use whatever your drivers support

4. CAN is an old communications bus, and currently is very commonly used in industrial automation as well as in vehicles. It collects data from sensors and send commands to control whatever is needed. It was adopted to use in 3D printers not long ago, so implementations are not as mature yet. I personally don't recommend CAN for first builders, especially if they have no experience with Klipper and underlying Linux operating system. Having 4 wires is convenient, but then the hardware wiring complexity is moved to more complicated firmware and software setup. When it works it's nice, when you get communication errors which nobody knows how to troubleshoot properly... well, it gets tricky. Upgrade to it after you get fed up or wires breaking in chains. USB will be nice because you can connect and set up as another MCU

5. Yes, those 4-pin "PC fan" connectors.

5.1. Yes, there are ways to do that on Octopus. It just occupies more connectors. https://www.nicksherlock.com/2022/0...ter-pwm-fan-on-the-btt-octopus-using-klipper/ has a nice writeup. Warning: switch output voltage to 5V, else you will push 24V to PWM signal wire. Fans don't like it.

6. Vast majority of VORON stuff runs on 24V so pick 24V fans. You can use 12V silent PC fans on skirt, to cool electronics bay.

7. CNC fan output just means it's speed can be controlled, usually by switching V- on and off (software PWM). It is used for part cooling fans. Other fans can be only turned on or off, or run non-stop.

 

[claudermilk]

@Sanity Agathion has given you very thorough answers (of course). I will add in with anecdotal experience. My self-sourced Trident has a Pi 4 and Octopus V1.1 with 2209 drivers for all 24V motors. It's now nearing 3 years old and hit 2700 hours print time. It's not a speed demon, but is generally a workhorse; I am plenty happy with this selection of components and have no plans to ever change them up on this printer. Oh, the fans are largely 24V as called out on the BOM specs; I swapped the electronics bay fans to 12V Noctuas because noise. They are either on or off, but that's fine--those don't really need PWM control and getting 12V to them was a simple matter of a jumper change on the Octopus.

 

[chubwagon]

I just finished my Trident build between the holidays (had everything except wiring done in May, then got busy lol) and I am also running the Pi4/Octopus V1.1/2209 setup. The stock fans, especially the exhaust and the two electronics cooling fans in the skirts are really noisy. Being able to just change a jumper to go to 12V for noctuas in the future is a really nice feature of that board. Still waiting on a serial number but it's a wonderful printer when you build it. I am using the hartk 2 piece toolhead breakout board, I would recommend that for Stealthburner if you don't go CAN.

 

[sanketss84]

Sanity, claudermilk and chubwagon thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience with Trident. gradually the haze I had in my understanding is clearing up as I hear more from you all.

• The explanation on why 5160 for A B motors absolutely makes sense as the coreXY motors move the most and the fastest we dont move the z-axis that fast and even the extruder motor does not move that fast.
• even getting a high voltage motor and running it at lower voltages will keep them cooler is also a great take away
• the LDO Leviathan design choice also started making sense.

I also found a few helpful articles on driving a PWM fan on a BTT Octopus, even using Pi GPIO pins for PWM , while I haven't deep dived into it but will take a look at it.

Driving a 4-pin computer PWM fan on the BTT Octopus using Klipper – Nicholas Sherlock

https://www.reddit.com/r/klippers/comments/ruyjls

I had a few more queries on the same voron trident build

1. The Meanwell Power supply which is suggested by Trident configurator is 200W but I saw some one using a 350 W PSU what is the advantage he is getting https://forum.vorondesign.com/threads/self-sourced-trident-350-build.1246/

2. The heat bed which is recommended for Trident 300 mm build is Keenovo Silicone AC Heater w/ thermistor - 250x250mm (450W) which needs 450W but the meanwell PSU is only 200W so how will this bed meet its power requirements, isnt the bed powered using the power supply ?

3. what max print speeds in mm/s can I expect from stock Trident 300 with Octopus Pro 1.1 and 2209 Drivers and stealth burner, also how much raise in speed can I expect after after doing input shaping and pressure advance for a clean print.

4. while I like the stealth burner toolhead are there other improved modern options/mods that are worth taking a look for the trident build.

 

[Sanity Agathion]

Don't hang onto those PWM fans too much right now. Those make sense to be used as part cooling fans because those are regulated. There are only few 24V fans with hardware PWM support, namely Sunon. For hotend fan, IMO it's more important to monitor their RPM. Low RPM or no RPM (fan stopped) causes clogs because heatsing is not cooled.

1. 200W is sufficient. You coooouulddd theoretically get away with 150W as well but that may really be too low if you plan to use more powerful motors or hotends. But that would be stretching it, 200W is safer.

2. That is correct. Bed is not powered from PSU, it's powered directly by 230 or 120V AC. That's why you can get away with smaller wattage PSUs than what it seemingly needs.

3. It's hard to say. Printing is not about raw speed only, accelerations play also role. It's no use trying to move at 600 mm/s when you never achieve that speed while printing 30x30 mm cube. And motion system is not always limiting factor, vast majority of times you will be flow limited by hotend. You can print only as fast as volumetric flow of your hotend allows, else you get underextrusion from hotend not melting plastic fast enough. There are calculators on the internet to calculate theoretical values for approximation. https://www.bondtech.se/customer-support/resources/online-print-job-calculator/ Once you figure out melting plastic, you need to cool it down too... then you find you are limited by part cooling

Input shaper helps with eliminating artefacts caused by accelerations during direction change, not necessarily achieving higher speeds. Pressure advance modifies extrusion rate during directional changes to make corners look better. Speeds and accels are also not the only values to tweak, beautiful prints at high speeds is one hell of a deep rabbit hole to fall down into.

4. Popular choices are Dragonburner/Rapidburner, or Xol toolhead. There are also other options for different types of cooling (CPAP, sheet cooling).

VORON spawned huge ecosystem of mods and upgrades, but as a newbie, don't get distracted by it too much just yet. We always recommend building stock, and then start addressing things you find deficient. VORON printers' baselines were designed to print as they are, it's not Enders requiring 14 other upgrades to get it even to properly functional state

 

[sanketss84]

Sanity, I cant be thankful enough for your time and all all your valuable insights which has helped me shave off so much time while I do my planning and research for building my first voron.

I hope to print at least at 300 mm/s with the stock voron trident build. as that would be a great start.
I am exploring self sourcing various parts for the build now as kits availability is a challenge in India.
There are a few stores that do sell voron hardware but first I need to understand what all I need.

Currently exploring toolhead , extruder , hotend combinations. yes the dragonburner and xol 2 are on that list.
Also need to check z belted mod as availability of NEMA17 TR8x8 300mm Linear Stepper might be an issue.

GitHub - 3DPrintingMods/VoronTrident-BeltedZ: A new approach for belted Z motion using Nema17 Gearboxes

A new approach for belted Z motion using Nema17 Gearboxes - GitHub - 3DPrintingMods/VoronTrident-BeltedZ: A new approach for belted Z motion using Nema17 Gearboxes

github.com

Also a linear stepper can have bending issues and height limitations so a z belt mod might be worth taking a look. lets see how it goes.

 

[m00dawg]

VORON spawned huge ecosystem of mods and upgrades, but as a newbie, don't get distracted by it too much just yet. We always recommend building stock, and then start addressing things you find deficient. VORON printers' baselines were designed to print as they are, it's not

I wanna reiterate this as I think it's incredibly important. In your shoes, if it's your first Voron, I would build from a kit (LDO, e.g.) and generally stick with the standard options first. You can always add fancier stuff later (Klicky, tap, CAN toolheads, Galileo, etc.). Any stock Voron is still an incredible machine that's also generally easy to work on when you do want to start swapping parts and keeping it stock makes the build process much more streamlined.

I will show my bias though. TAP is great but I'm still rolling with the standard Omron probe. As someone who scrutinizes first layers, I've been rather happy with it. I do have a Beacon I plan on installing at some point. My 2.4 has a Galielo 2 and a high RPM fan for the hotend heatsink but is otherwise stock. The high RPM fan was to help with HTPLA and Galielo 2 was just because I wanted to try it. G2 is great! Definitely win more though. I've made stunning prints from my fully stock 2.4. I have a CANbus upgrade for it as well but haven't yet bothered since everything is working and it's giving me beautiful results so *shrug*

 

[chubwagon]

I wanna reiterate this as I think it's incredibly important. In your shoes, if it's your first Voron, I would build from a kit (LDO, e.g.) and generally stick with the standard options first. You can always add fancier stuff later (Klicky, tap, CAN toolheads, Galileo, etc.). Any stock Voron is still an incredible machine that's also generally easy to work on when you do want to start swapping parts and keeping it stock makes the build process much more streamlined.

I will show my bias though. TAP is great but I'm still rolling with the standard Omron probe. As someone who scrutinizes first layers, I've been rather happy with it. I do have a Beacon I plan on installing at some point. My 2.4 has a Galielo 2 and a high RPM fan for the hotend heatsink but is otherwise stock. The high RPM fan was to help with HTPLA and Galielo 2 was just because I wanted to try it. G2 is great! Definitely win more though. I've made stunning prints from my fully stock 2.4. I have a CANbus upgrade for it as well but haven't yet bothered since everything is working and it's giving me beautiful results so *shrug*

I 100% agree with m00dawg. My thought was get the printer printing, then mod as I want, but get a running machine first. It's just a lot easier to troubleshoot in my opinion when you're running stock to start with, both from finding your own solutions by search and if you ask for help. My two week old Trident is mostly bone stock with the exception of some LED lights up in the top. I am planning to add TAP and some magnetic panel clips to make the sides easier to get into either for maintenance or when I want to print PLA. Once you have the printer built, then there's the steps of getting your klipper config set up the way you want, tuning with input shaper and whatnot, and configuring your slicer. There's stock configs and slicer settings out there, but as you tweak the printer, you'll have to tweak those as well. A bit of a game of whack a mole.

 

[sanketss84]

m00dawg and chubwagon I agree with what you have to say but to the best of my knowledge we dont have access to voron kits in India and I am not keen on importing them as the duties would increase the cost significantly and support for the same would be an even bigger hassle.
AliExpress also does not ship to India since its ban from 2020~21.
So the only option is to self source this, we do have some vendors who stock Voron specific spares but they are scattered
We have a Voron India discord as well which has some really helpful people who guide you with local sourcing options.
If possible I would have surely picked a Trident 300 LDO Kit for my first build.

 

[sanketss84]

My two week old Trident is mostly bone stock

out of curiosity what bed probe is used on your machine ?

 

[sanketss84]

Once you have the printer built, then there's the steps of getting your klipper config set up the way you want, tuning with input shaper and whatnot, and configuring your slicer. There's stock configs and slicer settings out there, but as you tweak the printer, you'll have to tweak those as well. A bit of a game of whack a mole.

this is an excellent point and will take this into consideration as I am still in the planning phase and chalk out a plan for the configuration side of things. thank you for bringing this to attention.

 

[chubwagon]

out of curiosity what bed probe is used on your machine ?

I'm using the standard Z endstop with the pin that falls out when the machine is flipped upside down, as well as the Omron PL-05 in the toolhead from the BOM. I did run into a small issue with an idler so my printer is down at the moment. Going to install TAP here once the parts come in, printing the required parts on my prusa.