Need to understand well downsides when the printer is bigger than 350mm

[vorondesignlover]

Printer Model

2.4 R2

Extruder Type

Galileo

Cooling Type

Stealthburner

Hello to all,
I'm currently evaluating the possibility to build a printer between 400mm and 500mm. Just to have an idea, I entered 400mm in the configurator and the returned BOM seemed pretty easy: the only difference with a 350mm one is the size of the frame components, rails, panels and buildplate. All the rest is the same.

• Is this enough (like in a 350mm builld) ?? Or I'll have to go into addditional parts and customizations?
• Considering that I'll mod the machine with high-performant parts (Rapido UHF, high voltage motors, Galileo 2, CANBus, Cartographer or Beacon, a possible future AWB upgrade etc) how much loss of speed I can expect compared to a 350mm build? Would be still possible to match X1C performance?
• Is speed the only downside or there are many other I'm not aware of?

I'll probably need more than 350mm only in 20% of my projects, so I'm trying to understand if the trade-off can be acceptable or not.

Thank

 

[vinnycordeiro]

The bigger the CoreXY printer, the more rigidity issues you get if using 2020 aluminum extrusions. There's also the issue with the belts, they start to get too long, which can give you troubles to properly tension them. That's the reason why Ratrig uses 3030 aluminum extrusions and 9mm belts on their V-Core line of printers, they are trying to mitigate those issues.

If you are really going to use the full printer size only on 20% of your projects, it starts to make more sense to build a smaller one and use slicer tricks to divide the big prints. Prusa/SuperSlicer can do that, and it can even add alignment features on the parts for easier assembly. Unless your prints can't use this feature for whatever reason, I'd go that way.

 

[vorondesignlover]

The bigger the CoreXY printer, the more rigidity issues you get if using 2020 aluminum extrusions. There's also the issue with the belts, they start to get too long, which can give you troubles to properly tension them. That's the reason why Ratrig uses 3030 aluminum extrusions and 9mm belts on their V-Core line of printers, they are trying to mitigate those issues.

Well, going with 3030 aluminum extrusions and 9mm belts to me seems another easy step. In my list of mods there is also the "5mm panels" mod I've been recommended here. I suppose this should help (or just overkill on 3030 extrusions?). Is there somewhere a comparison table between the difference sizes? I need to see each detail in order to take a conscious decision.

I feel like there's much more under the hood and not just a matter of extrusions and belts. If I decide to go in that way may be I'm better off to follow some open source projects like RatRig V-Core 3.1?

If you are really going to use the full printer size only on 20% of your projects, it starts to make more sense to build a smaller one and use slicer tricks to divide the big prints. Prusa/SuperSlicer can do that, and it can even add alignment features on the parts for easier assembly. Unless your prints can't use this feature for whatever reason, I'd go that way.

This could be acceptable as long as the ratio stays like that. If one day that percentage increase to 50% I suppose that slicer tricks will become a time consuming process. Are there particular differences between a model printed in its full size and the same model printed with slicer tricks? One I can think of is the visible gap between the joined parts.

In the future I may want to implement AWD and a bigger printer is more suitable. From what I've read this mod decrease the printable area and who has done it is not happy at all about it. I'm not sure if there is a workaround.

 

[vinnycordeiro]

Are there particular differences between a model printed in its full size and the same model printed with slicer tricks? One I can think of is the visible gap between the joined parts.

Yeah, visible gaps would be one of them, nothing that some post-processing can't solve: you could use acetone weld when printing ABS, for instance, or a 3D printing pen + some sanding.

In the future I may want to implement AWD and a bigger printer is more suitable. From what I've read this mod decrease the printable area and who has done it is not happy at all about it. I'm not sure if there is a workaround.

You only lose printing space when retrofitting AWD into an existent printer, for a scratch build you just compensate that by getting slight longer extrusions. I'd go Monolith for AWD on a Voron anyway, and that's exactly what the OP on that linked post did not use.

 

[vorondesignlover]

Thanks for sharing the tips to solve the visible gaps!

You only lose printing space when retrofitting AWD into an existent printer, for a scratch build you just compensate that by getting slight longer extrusions. I'd go Monolith for AWD on a Voron anyway, and that's exactly what the OP on that linked post did not use.

Ok, here I must be sure I've understood everything well. Indifferently from the size of the printer, to preserve the printing space I need to build the printer with longer extrusions. How many mm more? Extrusion code (HFSB5-XXXX-XXXX) ? If I have understood well there are different implementations (TinyShellScript, Siboor etc), but the only one that we want is Monolith Gantry. This one requires 4040 extrusions, right?

 

[vinnycordeiro]

This one requires 4040 extrusions, right?

If you intend to go big then yes. But mind you, it have to be the dual channel per side 4040 extrusion, like this one, not the single channel version. That's necessary to be able to reuse the current printed parts, and even so it may happen that you'll need to redesign some of them.

I advise you to seriously study the kind of mod(s) you'll need to do: this is typical "here be dragons" situation so you won't get as much useful help as if you were building a stock size.

 

[vorondesignlover]

If you intend to go big then yes. But mind you, it have to be the dual channel per side 4040 extrusion, like this one, not the single channel version. That's necessary to be able to reuse the current printed parts, and even so it may happen that you'll need to redesign some of them.

So, to make the printer "ready for AWB" I should build it with 2020 dual channel extrusions in case of a stock 350mm build or 4040 dual channel extrusions for anything bigger than 350mm (no idea why Ratrig uses 3030, structural strenght is much lower). Are you sure 2020 is enough to withstand AWD and many other performance mods? Regarding the need to design some of the printed parts, this only applies if I go big, right? And in any case I suppose there should be some printable project somewhere.

Is this the Monolith for AWD you previously recommended? Or you know some other better project? AWD seems an advanced mod that can only be evaluated and studied from an existing user who had the time to learn how a Voron printer works, so my plan was to think about it only once the build was completed, but apparently, if I don't want to face the loss of printable space, I need to build at least with the right extrusions. In description I read:

Can fit into a stock 2020 frame at the cost of some Y-overtravel with the added no-protrusion mode

No idea what this means. Seems that I can avoid the dual channel extrusions you previously mmentionned, but at some cost (does not sound good at all to me)

I advise you to seriously study the kind of mod(s) you'll need to do: this is typical "here be dragons" situation so you won't get as much useful help as if you were building a stock size.

You means that some of the mods I have in mind (Rapido, CANBus etc) may have compatibility issues if I decide to go big, right?

I'm afraid these are not the only downsides. I initially thought I could just build a 400mm or 500mm RatRig in the same easy way I could build a stock Voron 350mm, but I was wrong. There are too many other things to take into account and the fiirst (funny) one is that the 500 one doesn’t fit through a standard door and is nearly immovable due to weight by one person. It has been designed to be cheap and some components needs to be replaced with better ones. Their offcial reddit is full of issues and the customer support seems pretty much inexistent when issues are involved. Several users described their printers as "incomplete design". Apart the obvious ones, I have no idea on how much of these things are true.

No one here has ever attempted to build a Voron bigger than 350mm? After all the configurator allows to set a custom size. Some of the parts in the returned BOM still need to be replaced with better ones, but this occurs even with a stock 350mm. It should not be that hard for people that has already built a voron and know how works the whole chain. To me this seems the best option because one can control everything from the beginning.

 

[3dCase]

My brother has a ratrig vcore 300 and has spent double the purchase money on mods so far, and some were taken of again. now ratrig has just done an update of their OS, and my brother was experiencing trouble with some of his previously working things. He also found out that since /ratrig is basically one person, he, and he alone gets to decide what and how he updates or designs things. For example this person does not believe that 64 bit is useful and adds nothing' so he only supports 32 bit and still has not upgraded this. that means you cannot use a rpi5 , which is only 64 bit, and since 32 bit is a dying thing some day in the future he will have to, but not yet. This is just one example of the difference between Ratrig and Voron. Voron is truly only hardware design and Klipper works with every opensource OS that works with Klipper. on a Ratrig you use their OS unless Klipper has a Vcore substitute (which is very likely but I have not looked at it).
the other thing is the printed parts. You cannot use the Vcore parts they supplied, unless you do not care about creep (unless they have changed it since he bought his Vcore). They used to print all their stuff in PETG and within a month or so my brother decided to reprint it all in ABS.
Other then that there are some very nice advantages in a Vcore like electronics bay on the side as standard and three point suspended bed with magnetic balls. But as my brother said if he had known everything at the start, he would have bought a Voron. His machine is modded to the hilt and now runs at 400 MM/S and 6000 accel (x and y are different due to umbilical swinging issues and he chose the lowest for both) but it was, and still is, an endless money pit.
Most of us will not want to go down that rabbit hole so chose what you want/need with this knowledge in mind. if you think about it long enough there might be another project of an opensource printer on the market and you have not build any of them yet

 

[vinnycordeiro]

You means that some of the mods I have in mind (Rapido, CANBus etc) may have compatibility issues if I decide to go big, right?

No, those are pretty benign mods. I'm talking about the usage of non-2020 aluminum extrusions. The only mod that is somewhat documented for a Voron using 4040 extrusions is DOOMcube, and even so it only uses them for the vertical extrusions (the mod is more oriented for temperature keeping by creating a double heat isolation chamber).

Is this the Monolith for AWD you previously recommended?

It is, and it is indeed an advanced mod, there are no full instructions for it, you have to be comfortable with just having the CAD model to proceed. Don't forget to use the configurator spreadsheet to know which parts to order.

No one here has ever attempted to build a Voron bigger than 350mm?

Oh, many. I remember reading one guys years ago, don't remember if it was on reddit or on Discord, that built a 1m³ 2.4 telling all the problems he had to make the printer work. CoreXY in general doesn't scale well, the belts become too long. You can go to Ivan Miranda's YouTube channel and watch some older videos of him building a custom designed 1m x 1m x 2m (I believe, if memory is right) CoreXY printer, he used 12mm or 15mm belts.

 

[3dCase]

@vorondesignlover you said "Well, going with 3030 aluminum extrusions and 9mm belts to me seems another easy step".
This might sound ok but it is not strictly speaking true. When you look at the original design of 2020 frame of the voron, you will quickly find all sorts of pitfalls in yourt logic. The designed parts are accepting 2020 profiles which you will need to modify unless somebody has already done that for you. Also, 3030 profiles come with different slot dimensions so you will need to check the whole of the 3d model if you can "simply exchange" the 2020 with 3030.
Since you have not yet build one of these (maybe I am wrong but this is my understanding) then I think you will be out of your depth from the start. I advise you to stick with existing printers and tried and tested mods that are well documented.
Building a Voron is not rocket science but there are too many people that have unfinished project in their shed collecting dust because they did not have the mindset or skills to build it. Building one with undocumented mods is to the Nth degree more difficult.

 

[3dCase]

No, those are pretty benign mods. I'm talking about the usage of non-2020 aluminum extrusions. The only mod that is somewhat documented for a Voron using 4040 extrusions is DOOMcube, and even so it only uses them for the vertical extrusions (the mod is more oriented for temperature keeping by creating a double heat isolation chamber).


It is, and it is indeed an advanced mod, there are no full instructions for it, you have to be comfortable with just having the CAD model to proceed. Don't forget to use the configurator spreadsheet to know which parts to order.


Oh, many. I remember reading one guys years ago, don't remember if it was on reddit or on Discord, that built a 1m³ 2.4 telling all the problems he had to make the printer work. CoreXY in general doesn't scale well, the belts become too long. You can go to Ivan Miranda's YouTube channel and watch some older videos of him building a custom designed 1m x 1m x 2m (I believe, if memory is right) CoreXY printer, he used 12mm or 15mm belts.

Did this person build his 1x1x2 meter machine for a one of project? I recall some long time ago I saw somebody doing this to 3d print a statue of some sort, but it might be another person altogether. Phenomenal project though and not for the faint of heart.

Found your link and he also printed a statue with it, of himself no less. It is not the same guy though but great fun to see him do this. Thankx for that link!

 

[informel]

Hello to all,
I'm currently evaluating the possibility to build a printer between 400mm and 500mm. Just to have an idea, I entered 400mm in the configurator and the returned BOM seemed pretty easy: the only difference with a 350mm one is the size of the frame components, rails, panels and buildplate. All the rest is the same.

• Is this enough (like in a 350mm builld) ?? Or I'll have to go into addditional parts and customizations?
• Considering that I'll mod the machine with high-performant parts (Rapido UHF, high voltage motors, Galileo 2, CANBus, Cartographer or Beacon, a possible future AWB upgrade etc) how much loss of speed I can expect compared to a 350mm build? Would be still possible to match X1C performance?
• Is speed the only downside or there are many other I'm not aware of?

I'll probably need more than 350mm only in 20% of my projects, so I'm trying to understand if the trade-off can be acceptable or not.

Thank

It will also take a longer time to eat the enclosure, you may have to preheat for a long time as if you print something very big the frame will expand while you print layer one and you may have a problem with adhesion or clog.