Need to understand well downsides when the printer is bigger than 350mm

[vorondesignlover]

The printed parts are PC (polycarbonate) blend with carbon fiber wich definitely is a significant upgrade in terms of strength and temperature resistance compared to standard PETG. also his quality is out of this world according to almost all of his clients.

Very interesting mod, but need to figure out if could be overkill. Based on the below table, ABS should be still good to print until PC (may be even CF-Nylon / CF-PC ??). I can't find any real usage for the last twos.

High-Performance Materials (High-Temp Build Required)

Material	Nozzle Temp	Bed Temp	Chamber	Key Properties	Use Cases
Nylon (PA6, PA12)	250–280°C	80–110°C	Yes (60–80°C)	Flexible, very tough, absorbs moisture	Gears, bushings, tooling
PC (Polycarbonate)	270–310°C	110–130°C	Yes (70–90°C)	Rigid, strong, heat resistant	Functional parts, brackets
CF-Nylon / CF-PC	260–300°C	100–120°C	Yes	Carbon-fiber filled = strong, stiff, abrasive	Robotics, end-use parts
PEI (Ultem™)	360–400°C	130–160°C	Industrial chamber	Flame-retardant, ultra-high strength	Aerospace, medical
PEEK / PPSU	360–420°C	130–160°C	Industrial chamber	Chemically and thermally resistant	Extreme engineering use

For V-Core 4 with enclosure, many users go with ABS or ASA for all printed parts.

Is this is the kit you're talking about? 200€ are a lot of money and I'm not sure about the return in benefits. If what I wrote above is true, then it will be mostly strenght, but even in such case I have doubts because users seem satisfied even with ABS. I also see that if one day I want to go IDEX, I'll have to buy the related kit again (the single toolhead version seems not upgradable).

Their AWD kit is very interesting and its price reasonable, but as soon as you select the full kit, price sky rocket. We're exiting from DIY world and entering more into the commercial world.

To prove that this person knows what he is talking about, here is his own build log of a machine that he designed out of other machines good ideas:

Vulcain 1.3 600

3D Print service and designer

store.brs-engineering.com

Very interesting! How you think would compare with a V-Core 4? The first difference I can think of is that this is going to be much more expensive. I'll understand the correct way to interpret performance data only once I'll have my first printer of my hands, but with a superficial read to me seems much slower than a v-core 4. The page you linked shows 12600 of acceleration with AWD (Bambulab X1C can reach 20000) while the V-core 4 500 reviewed in this video reached 800mm/s at 30000 (30k) acceleration with no issues in quality:

https://imgur.com/a/Zr0fRlA

V-Core 4 is not even AWD and I'm very curious to see how would perform with it. During researches I was thinking on how to implement AWD in a Voron, but I feel like it will be probably useless in a v-core 4 given how it performs without.

I suppose the guy has done this just for fun, I hardly doubt a printer like that can have success in the market.

but I am now finding my next machine I think, through searching these parts and links for you I come accross this,

Zachte Echte DIY VzBoT AWD330 VZ330 3D Printer Kit Voor Hoge Kwaliteit CNC Metaal Lichtgewicht Hoge Snelheid Afdrukken Met Klipper - AliExpress 7

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

nl.aliexpress.com

That is a beast! I would only investigate if the hextrudert could be changed for the same with 60:10???

I had chances to know about its existence when I was looking at the mods for the Voron. I've been tempted for a while, but then I returned back immediately to Voron: when printers are so small, even 20mm of printable space can be precious. Even the attraction to its performance quickly fade: since I was going to build a Voron from scratch I just thought I could make it fast as it.


400-600mm/s at 25k is still much slower than a v-core 4 500mm.

1000 mm/s seems problematic in every printer, but in hybrid--corexy step-loss occurs at 34000. To me seems a very good result. Whether 1000 mm/s is achiievable with the right optimizations and mods I have no idea.

https://imgur.com/a/RRKwG4e

The guy said that even 800mm/s at 58000mm/s could be achievable if he can manage to solve the outliers:

https://imgur.com/4SHrJRy

Also please note that, unlike v-core 4, VzBot run in AWD and 48V. With these mods implemented in a v-core I expect even more gap between the twos. I also see that a VzBot kit is more expensive than a v-core 4.
I would never go with a VzBot, but may be you found other valid reasons I'm not aware of.

My main concern when I opened this thread was about the performance loss when trying to scale a CoreXY beyond 350 mm. Based on the new info I had chance to discover while posting, I have to believe that, if the big printer is well designed, the loss is minimal. I've been surprised to see a 500mm printer going faster than a 330mm one extremely optimized for high performance. Unless someone know other aspects I'm not aware of, I think that the perforrmance loss should not be a concern anymore at least if I stick with a RatRig.

As far as I know there aren't alternatives apart the Phoenix Voron project for which the ETA is unknown (months? years?).

 

[3dCase]

You need to build your own and find out the limits of 3d printing first hand. Those numbers are just numbers until you start printing. Very quickly you will find out a few things. For instance the fact that in most printers these maximum figures are rarely reached for the simple fact that by the time the printhead has reached its speed, it is time to slow down again. ramp up and ramp down distance takes away from your printing distance so it is academic in many cases. on top of that, print quality loss is a subjective thing and one person finds this or that acceptable but the next does not. You hear many people claim things, and many videos showing you that their printer does BRRR BRRRRR at out of this world speed. fact is that most printers that are theoretically capable of those speeds do not normally print at those speeds. Those claims are for the hobby people who like to get the most out of their build and do speedboat benchie runs for fun. But for practical use those speeds will not be used because there are other issues besides whether it looks like a bency or not, maintenance is one huge issue with those machines at those speeds.
if you can reach 400mm/s and print working prototypes of technical models with bearings and fasteners that work. A part that retains it structural strength and functions as it is supposed to, I think you already belong to an elite group that found their limits of practical 3d printing. bambu and some creality machines claim 800 mm/s at 20K accels but I have never met a person who said he manages to print everything at those speeds, ever! More often they stay at 200 or 300 mm/s and are happy.
Now I can continue to feed you edge case machines that are somewhere out there, and I wonder if you will continue to reserach those too?
I know of a 6 axis robotic arm that print non planar. Totally unpractical yet because there is no slicer yet that will give you a g-code for that, but great fun.
I know of a printer that prints from granules instead of filament. Great solution for some but not main stream at all and I doubt ever!
I am sure if I start looking I can find many more examples. But they are not our bread and butter.
Its time you decide and not ponder any longer. I will keep watching but if it is about comparisons and numbers of accel and speed or highest temps reachable, I doubt I will reply. What can be said so far, has been said.

 

[vorondesignlover]

You need to build your own and find out the limits of 3d printing first hand. Those numbers are just numbers until you start printing. Very quickly you will find out a few things. For instance the fact that in most printers these maximum figures are rarely reached for the simple fact that by the time the printhead has reached its speed, it is time to slow down again. ramp up and ramp down distance takes away from your printing distance so it is academic in many cases.

You're right, there are so many details involved and I need to learn each one before I can understand how much of the speed capability really goes into print job. I always saw in this way:
"let try to make the printer the most possible performant through high spec components (UHF , hv motors etc). In real world, the printer will not be able to get even close to its full speed in an usable way, but the same print quality can still be achieved faster than a stock build."

To me this seems the correct and only possible approach when someone has to build a printer for the first time and have no other more reliable parameters at disposition. And the easiest way because trying to take into account each detail can be frustrating.

on top of that, print quality loss is a subjective thing and one person finds this or that acceptable but the next does not.

You made another good point! The quality of big Hulk printed at 800mm/s to me seemed more than enough. However I had no chance to see how the same Hulk would look when printed at half of the speed.

You hear many people claim things, and many videos showing you that their printer does BRRR BRRRRR at out of this world speed. fact is that most printers that are theoretically capable of those speeds do not normally print at those speeds. Those claims are for the hobby people who like to get the most out of their build and do speedboat benchie runs for fun.

Yes, and this is why I see such claims with the approach described at the beginning: if the printer does BRRR BRRRRR, then the realistic speed should be still better than a printer that can't do BRRR BRRRRR. Without any experience, this is the only way I have at disposition to attempt an estimate of what could be my goal. I'm not sure why you believe I always want to go at such speeds. Like most of the users, my main goal is to find the right compromize. The only purpose of my attention for the maximum supported speed and related issues is to estimate a possible safe speed.

But for practical use those speeds will not be used because there are other issues besides whether it looks like a bency or not, maintenance is one huge issue with those machines at those speeds.

Yes, I've taken some countermisures to reduce maintenance, but I'm sure I've not taken into account all the involved parts. The best I can do is to use the printer in a way that fully satisfies me and then, over the time, see what are are the parts that need more maintenance and how I can improve that.

if you can reach 400mm/s and print working prototypes of technical models with bearings and fasteners that work. A part that retains it structural strength and functions as it is supposed to, I think you already belong to an elite group that found their limits of practical 3d printing.

If I have understood well, in case of a core 4, you recommend 400mm/s as a starting point and see if at this speed I can print any project without issues. Then increase over the time to see if the possible downsides can be handled or not. To me sounds good. It looks like finding the right balance will be the last and hardest part of the project, but I was already prepared for this.

bambu and some creality machines claim 800 mm/s at 20K accels but I have never met a person who said he manages to print everything at those speeds, ever! More often they stay at 200 or 300 mm/s and are happy.

Yes, for example one can print the Hulk in the video at 800mm/s and be satisfied from the results. Then, in another project, the same speed can end up in unsatisying results which forces to reprint again. Loss of time and materials. High speeds only make sense when one needs to print the same model in bulk, otherwise much better to always run at safe speeds. This is the first rule I learned when I started to look for 3D printers: a failure can easily ruin any benefit one may get when he successfully printed one and more projects at very high speed.

Now I can continue to feed you edge case machines that are somewhere out there, and I wonder if you will continue to reserach those too?
I know of a 6 axis robotic arm that print non planar. Totally unpractical yet because there is no slicer yet that will give you a g-code for that, but great fun.
I know of a printer that prints from granules instead of filament. Great solution for some but not main stream at all and I doubt ever!
I am sure if I start looking I can find many more examples. But they are not our bread and butter.
Its time you decide and not ponder any longer. I will keep watching but if it is about comparisons and numbers of accel and speed or highest temps reachable, I doubt I will reply. What can be said so far, has been said.

Do not worry, there is no such risk. I opened this thread with well in mind that RatRig and Voron >350mm were the two only possible options (beside slicer tricks). Anything else you can post will be no more than an article that one quickly read and close just for curiosity, included the VzBot link you previously posted. In such case, since it was a printer I evaluated in the past, I just wanted to share my thoughts and the reasons for which it was not suitable for me. Hope you'll not get offended from this, I was talking only about my specific use case and, as I already said, you have for sure your own vallid reasons.

I have already decided time ago:

I added the relevant BOM lists sheets and will see what I'll end up with once finished. I think that now, more than me, the budget is the one that will decide between one or the other.

Which means RatRig if the budget will allow, otherwise the regular Voron 350.

Feel free to just watch. You have already be nice and I don't want to abuse your time. Just let me clarify one thing...

I noticed that many of my observations remains without response and I'm fine with this, but you mentioned the highest temps reachable as one of those observations that do not deserve to be commented. No problem, but let me clarify for people that read this thread and may think the same.
This refers to a mod you recommended me, not to the main topic (PrinterX vs PrinterY). You didn't responded and will not respond to any of the doubts about the effectiveness of this mod, so I'll consider all of them still valid. The fact that a company sells a particular kit made of better materials does not mean that the system where the kit has to be installed needs such materials. In this particular case is even harder to notice if there is any benefit because the machine behaviour remains basically the same whether the printed parts are made of ABS or polycarbonate blend with carbon fiber. Given that no one reported issues with ABS, in such cases I normally says "If it is a bit more expensive just go for it, it can't be bad!". However, we're talking about more than 300€ once we include taxes and shipping. Anyone that come here and see such mod will probably want to know if this is going to be a waste of money or not and I've just exposed the reasons I found after a quick search that make me think it could (could not necessarily means is). No one want to go through the same nightmare had to go your brother. He first got all parts in PET-G, then switched to ASA and finally switched again to the polycarbonate mod. You said that criticism should be desirable, so let's take my observations as something good. Thanks

 

[3dCase]

You're right, there are so many details involved and I need to learn each one before I can understand how much of the speed capability really goes into print job. I always saw in this way:
"let try to make the printer the most possible performant through high spec components (UHF , hv motors etc). In real world, the printer will not be able to get even close to its full speed in an usable way, but the same print quality can still be achieved faster than a stock build."

To me this seems the correct and only possible approach when someone has to build a printer for the first time and have no other more reliable parameters at disposition. And the easiest way because trying to take into account each detail can be frustrating.

You made another good point! The quality of big Hulk printed at 800mm/s to me seemed more than enough. However I had no chance to see how the same Hulk would look when printed at half of the speed.

Yes, and this is why I see such claims with the approach described at the beginning: if the printer does BRRR BRRRRR, then the realistic speed should be still better than a printer that can't do BRRR BRRRRR. Without any experience, this is the only way I have at disposition to attempt an estimate of what could be my goal. I'm not sure why you believe I always want to go at such speeds. Like most of the users, my main goal is to find the right compromize. The only purpose of my attention for the maximum supported speed and related issues is to estimate a possible safe speed.

Yes, I've taken some countermisures to reduce maintenance, but I'm sure I've not taken into account all the involved parts. The best I can do is to use the printer in a way that fully satisfies me and then, over the time, see what are are the parts that need more maintenance and how I can improve that.

If I have understood well, in case of a core 4, you recommend 400mm/s as a starting point and see if at this speed I can print any project without issues. Then increase over the time to see if the possible downsides can be handled or not. To me sounds good. It looks like finding the right balance will be the last and hardest part of the project, but I was already prepared for this.

Yes, for example one can print the Hulk in the video at 800mm/s and be satisfied from the results. Then, in another project, the same speed can end up in unsatisying results which forces to reprint again. Loss of time and materials. High speeds only make sense when one needs to print the same model in bulk, otherwise much better to always run at safe speeds. This is the first rule I learned when I started to look for 3D printers: a failure can easily ruin any benefit one may get when he successfully printed one and more projects at very high speed.

Do not worry, there is no such risk. I opened this thread with well in mind that RatRig and Voron >350mm were the two only possible options (beside slicer tricks). Anything else you can post will be no more than an article that one quickly read and close just for curiosity, included the VzBot link you previously posted. In such case, since it was a printer I evaluated in the past, I just wanted to share my thoughts and the reasons for which it was not suitable for me. Hope you'll not get offended from this, I was talking only about my specific use case and, as I already said, you have for sure your own vallid reasons.

I have already decided time ago:

Which means RatRig if the budget will allow, otherwise the regular Voron 350.

Feel free to just watch. You have already be nice and I don't want to abuse your time. Just let me clarify one thing...

I noticed that many of my observations remains without response and I'm fine with this, but you mentioned the highest temps reachable as one of those observations that do not deserve to be commented. No problem, but let me clarify for people that read this thread and may think the same.
This refers to a mod you recommended me, not to the main topic (PrinterX vs PrinterY). You didn't responded and will not respond to any of the doubts about the effectiveness of this mod, so I'll consider all of them still valid. The fact that a company sells a particular kit made of better materials does not mean that the system where the kit has to be installed needs such materials. In this particular case is even harder to notice if there is any benefit because the machine behaviour remains basically the same whether the printed parts are made of ABS or polycarbonate blend with carbon fiber. Given that no one reported issues with ABS, in such cases I normally says "If it is a bit more expensive just go for it, it can't be bad!". However, we're talking about more than 300€ once we include taxes and shipping. Anyone that come here and see such mod will probably want to know if this is going to be a waste of money or not and I've just exposed the reasons I found after a quick search that make me think it could (could not necessarily means is). No one want to go through the same nightmare had to go your brother. He first got all parts in PET-G, then switched to ASA and finally switched again to the polycarbonate mod. You said that criticism should be desirable, so let's take my observations as something good. Thanks

If my replies, suggestions or critique helped you make up your mind or see something in a more practical way, then I am happy for both of us.
I don’t always answer on all your points for a variety of reasons, and I do not like to then “scatter” the information by responding in such a way that split the thread into many little discussions. I do not believe a forum is the correct platform for this.
With regards to your final statement I do want to say one thing, which I believe you may have missed.
The cost of a mod needs a return of investment. This return is not always the same for different people. You may conclude that it was a waste of money but the other person, with his or her different way of approach, thinking and reasons, may be looking at something else to improve.
For instance the case of my brother. He started with PETG and every week he had to tighten all the bolts. Then he printed ASA and now he had to tighten all his bolts only every 2 months perhaps. So that is an improvement for him. But at the same time he did resonance graphs and together with people in some forums he concluded that his machine needed more stiffness to improve the resonances. So he upgraded to PC blend with Carbon. Then he did see an improvement, but still not totally what he expected. So he purchased a lightweight hollow x gantry. Now he found again a little bit of an improvement. The thing is, the deeper you go, the cost for improvements go up dramatically but the returns go smaller. At this point he found that suspending his umbilical with four eleastic bands to the corner of his frame is having more effect than the last 300 dollars he spent. And this was his goal, finding what is a reasonable expected improvement for what cost. This is his hobby. He prints things he needs of course, but improving his machine is the real reason he is in this hobby.
You must not spend all this money before you know what a printer will be like, because I really believe that nobody can determine what will be their printer without ever having built one and use it.

Now I know you are chosing between either a V2.4 350 or a Ratrig V-core , I only will tell you one more thing, Check what material the ratrig comes with these days, because if it is still PETG I, and my brother, would never buy it.
I truly wish you all the best for your build, and I hope to see one day that you made a choice and you are happy with it

 

[vorondesignlover]

If my replies, suggestions or critique helped you make up your mind or see something in a more practical way, then I am happy for both of us.
I don’t always answer on all your points for a variety of reasons, and I do not like to then “scatter” the information by responding in such a way that split the thread into many little discussions. I do not believe a forum is the correct platform for this.

You've been very helpful for sure and you (along with your brother) already saved me from possible mistakes. You're right, I should have tried to focus more on the main topic, the policarbonate mod should have gone into its own dedicated thread: there are so many details that should be discussed and here would be the wrong place. And, as you said, is too soon to think about it.

With regards to your final statement I do want to say one thing, which I believe you may have missed.
The cost of a mod needs a return of investment. This return is not always the same for different people. You may conclude that it was a waste of money but the other person, with his or her different way of approach, thinking and reasons, may be looking at something else to improve.
For instance the case of my brother. He started with PETG and every week he had to tighten all the bolts. Then he printed ASA and now he had to tighten all his bolts only every 2 months perhaps. So that is an improvement for him. But at the same time he did resonance graphs and together with people in some forums he concluded that his machine needed more stiffness to improve the resonances. So he upgraded to PC blend with Carbon. Then he did see an improvement, but still not totally what he expected. So he purchased a lightweight hollow x gantry. Now he found again a little bit of an improvement. The thing is, the deeper you go, the cost for improvements go up dramatically but the returns go smaller. At this point he found that suspending his umbilical with four eleastic bands to the corner of his frame is having more effect than the last 300 dollars he spent. And this was his goal, finding what is a reasonable expected improvement for what cost. This is his hobby. He prints things he needs of course, but improving his machine is the real reason he is in this hobby.

The details you added on your brother mods are very helpful and I totally agree in everything. It's a clear demonstration on how issues should be handled. The first rule is to only handle the issues when they come out, never before: we don't know their entity and their cause. Then, once they appear, let first try the easiest and cheap way, sometimes this is going to work much better than any other advanced solution.

You must not spend all this money before you know what a printer will be like, because I really believe that nobody can determine what will be their printer without ever having built one and use it.

Holy words! In addition to that, we're talking about different machines with different specs and therefore expected issues can be different. I'm trying to follow this approach at least for parts that should only be evaluated on an already built machine with enough service hours. I should follow the same rule even for high performance parts while I'm doing the mistake to build everything at once. Not only I'm going to lose all the learning I can have when I upgrade step by step, I also lose the fun to see the "before" and the "after"
I thought to this multiple times, but I feel like this may be the case where applies "Do it all now or never!"

Now I know you are chosing between either a V2.4 350 or a Ratrig V-core , I only will tell you one more thing, Check what material the ratrig comes with these days, because if it is still PETG I, and my brother, would never buy it.

Many thanks for the recommendations. I will go with the hardest way and will source all the parts myself, so I should stay free from the risks that come with kits (peope reported even missing and wrong parts).

I truly wish you all the best for your build, and I hope to see one day that you made a choice and you are happy with it

Many thanks friend. I really hope! Several months are gone and each time I discover new things that slowdown the project. I hope that the printer size will be the last one.
At this point I would say that everything should proceed smoothly, the printer size was the hardest part, every else doubt I encounter during the way should much easier and faster to solve.

Thanks again