Solved Thinking about switching from Revo to a Dragon or Rapido

[m00dawg]

Originally I bought a Revo for my 2.4 build but ended up using it on my V0 instead. And I liked it but rather disliked the brass nozzle and also found the nozzle changes weren't all that much convenient over the promise of single handed nozzle changes with Dragon or Rapido. Qualify was good and it is also lightweight (which is why I opted to try it on the V0).

Well, as I mentioned here, a wire broke off on the Revo side of the quick connector. These connectors are actually something I've had trouble with on my MK3s and moved back to single long cables on them. I'm getting a replacement, which is good! And might start my V2.4 journey with a Revo.

But, I *REALLY* miss the nickel/copper nozzles (I find I get way better looking parts) and the DragonFly that the V0 kit came with has pleasantly surprised me. All around it seems built better than an E3D V6 and Revo and came with a nickel/copper nozzle, not to mention it's compatible with V6 style nozzles. This has made me re-evaluate my 2.4 nozzle selection since it means I can get V6 style nozzles and they'll work on all my printers (My MK3s, V0, and V2.4) and I can experiment with the fancy Bondtech nozzles if I wanted for example. Though I'm not a fan of the patents with the CHT nozzles (though they had to get a license so it's not their fault) and that's also a ding against the Revo.

I quite like E3D and want to support them and I do like the lightness of the Revo and it does heat up much faster (usably so, not just because of the location of thermistor) buuuuut I think I've been letting that cloud my options a bit and shouldn't be rewarding lack of nozzle options (and patents). Revo might get there but right now it's not checking the boxes like I hope it would. Granted, if Prusa updates the MK3s with a rigid mount system, I'll probably slap Revo's in there but eeh who knows. Dragonfly's might be a better choice there too.

Anyways! I know this question gets asked A LOT. But if I'm specifically wanting quality over speed, is there a marked difference between Dragon and Rapido? There must be or else why offer both?

 

[m00dawg]

Sort of nevermind I forgot you can't easily get the Dragon without having to hit the grey-market due to Slice. Kinda puts me on the Rapido train regardless.

 

[LoadMaster7]

Is there legal action between Phaetus Dragon HF and Slice Engineering Mosquito? I couldn't find any info regarding it. If there is, I was unaware. I have the Phaetus Dragon HF. It came as part of my Formbot Voron 2.4 R2. I really like the Dragon and it is working well for me. I've have used only the 0.4mm nozzle, but I have other sizes on the way, up to 1.0mm. I'll be testing it soon.

I hope you find the right combo for your printer.

Question

 

[m00dawg]

From what I've read (mostly from Reddit) indeed not only has Sliced cracked down on Phateus but also apparently was targeting smaller operations too with pretty harsh suits. Then they apparently weren't very kind to the Voron designers which is why you don't see Slice designs with the various toolheads in the repos. That seems especially odd for Slice given that'd be a clear revenue stream but I don't know all the details.

All that is mostly from Reddit so set your compass but even before that, the fact the Slice patented their tech seems to have started a trend I really don't like with other companies having to protect their IP as a result. e3d's Revo for instance, but also Bambu. I'm also worried about the Prusa XL (but Joesph himself has an OSHW tattoo so hopefully not). I credit this trend squarely with Slice.

I'd be all over the Slice hotend were it not for the patents, even if they didn't enforce them. They basically made me an anti-customer. Doubly so considering how long FDM 3D printing has been around and how long it took to land in the hands of hobbyists and small companies. I'm pretty emphatic about not returning to those days.

But yeah where it stands, the Rapido can be found stateside but the Dragon has to be ordered outside.

 

[7milesup]

I have nothing to really add @m00dawg but I did go down basically the same path that you did when I started my V2.4r build. I ordered a Mosquito Magnum initially, but that was before I knew anything about the patent issues, etc. I am completely new to the Voron so I am still learning (I have had a Prusa Mk2.5s for 5 years, though). I ended up sending the Mosquito back and ordered a Phaetus Rapido from West3D. I also looked into the Revo, but I did not like the idea of having a closed ecosystem where parts/upgrades can only be purchased from Revo or their designated supplier(s). I have been burned by proprietary ecosystems before.
I do not have my 2.4r done yet due to work work work (I was retired but came out of retirement. Not sure if that was a good idea, LOL) and the holidays, so I can't give you any more info on how well the Rapido works.

 

[m00dawg]

Based on my experience so far with the DragonFly I'm looking forward to the Rapido. It's already mounted to my 2.4 but I still have to do the electronics bay, wiring, etc. I did receive the replacement heater core for my Revo and it seems to be made a little better. I feel like the Voron 0 might be a tad too cramped for the Revo (mostly due to where the clips are) though with a breakout board it might more a bit better. Not sure what I'll end up using the Revo on at this point. Still holding out hope we might see plated metal nozzles from E3D for the Revo but we'll see!

When I bought the Rapido, I also grabbed a Bondtech 0.6 CHT to try out just to see.

 

[Daniel@West3D]

Just popped in to say, rapido!

 

[Dave]

I’ve used a Dragon, a V6 with various heaters, a Dragonfly, and a Revo in my 2.4 to test things out, and the Revo is the best hot end that I’ve used in terms of print quality. ANY of these hot ends can produce superb results. I would argue that tuning in the HE you have will be much more beneficial than starting tuning from scratch with a new HE. If you want to play with a new toy, I am 100% in favor of getting a new HE to play around with. If you are looking for better results, then I think that spending time tuning is better spent than switching to a new HE.

 

[m00dawg]

I ended up buying a Rapido to try in the 2.4. The Revo did good work in the V0 but I do find I like the DragonFly better.

It's really the plated copper nozzles. I just get such good top layers with them and they are so easy to clean. That made the brass nozzles of the Revo feel like a huge step backwards. I know there's Obxidian though wondering how much it's like Nozzle-X (which I didn't care for over plated copper). I really hope E3D offers those at some point. My other gripe is the patent issue but this is my biggest sticking point with the Revo (literally since everything under the sun seems to stick to brass nozzles).

For my use case, everything else about the Revo is pretty great! Build quality-wise though I would give Phateus a node here. The Rapido feels better built to me (but it's also heavier). I still have to finish my 2.4 of course but have pondered a 250mm Trident when I next need to expand my print capacity and might set it aside for that build. Hopefully by then E3D has some plated nozzle options so folks don't have to hear me wax poetic about plated copper

 

[m00dawg]

Forgot to add though, I haven't quite figured out the Rapido install. I'm using the LDO toolhead board which means I need to either snip and tin the existing connector or make a very small adapter since the included hardware doesn't fit the toolhead board.
Then there is the issue of how much power the Rapido draws during heat up which requires changing the wiring to the controller which I haven't figured out yet. That makes me mildly concerned about the wires in the umbilical.

EDIT: Teaching Tech actually has a nice primer on all the crimp style connectors, including the ferrule:

I think that's what I'm going to end up using for the Rapido (remove the existing connector, crimp ferrule's right on to plug directly into the toolhead PCB)

 

[jovdvyver]

I have a Revo, Rapido and had a Dragon. Of those 3 the Dragon was hands down the worst, so I'm not going to bother talking about it. But the Rapido perform exactly like the Revo. There are claims the Revo has higher quality and I initially found this to be true. Then I realised it was because the slicer was limiting speed due to the flow rate limit. Once I used my Revo profile with Rapido, I literally could not see a difference in quality.

Then there is the fact that you can get a higher temperature heater core for Rapido and use the ever popular V6 nozzles (hello CHT) and IMO you have a significantly better option with the Rapido. My Revo isn't getting much use anymore because I can get the same quality at low speed with Rapido and I can get high print speeds using a V6 CHT nozzle

The only advantage of the Revo is nozzle change, something I don't do often and with the Rapido and my (tiny) torque wrench I really don't have any problems with the procedure.

 

[7milesup]

For those of you that have the Rapido, there is a recommendation on LDO's site to utilize the bed heat for the hotend due to the high initial current draw of the Rapido. Do you guys follow that recommendation? I have the Formbot kit, but I assume it is the same, although I use a two-piece tool head PCB and the picture of the rewiring shows a PCB mounted to the DIN rail.

 

[m00dawg]

For those of you that have the Rapido, there is a recommendation on LDO's site to utilize the bed heat for the hotend due to the high initial current draw of the Rapido. Do you guys follow that recommendation? I have the Formbot kit, but I assume it is the same, although I use a two-piece tool head PCB and the picture of the rewiring shows a PCB mounted to the DIN rail.

I actually asked that very same question over here. The short answer is that it's probably a really good idea if you're able.

 

[7milesup]

I actually asked that very same question over here. The short answer is that it's probably a really good idea if you're able.

I am able as far as crimpers, connectors, and wiring is concerned. I just need to make sure I wire it up correctly.

 

[m00dawg]

It wasn't bad once I figured out what the LDO docs were saying. You basically swap the heaters. So the Rapido goes on the big heater output (the one with the higher rated MOSFET that was previously be used for the bed) and the Bed heater wiring goes where the hotend wiring was. This is because the SSR is what is doing all the heavy lifting for the bed heater. It just needs a low power DC signal to work so using the smaller rated output ends up being the better option.

 

[tiamatu]

I am doing a similar move - Revo -> Rapido. I do like the Revo and bought two of them initially (2.4 and 0.1) to consolidate on hotend and quickly realized I was running out of flow on the 2.4 after some tuning, mostly on the infill. I ordered a Rapido for the 2.4 and am going to give it a whirl in the coming weeks. I already have the toolhead parts printed out for it and will also be making that wiring shift and switching the heaters.

 

[7milesup]

I have the Rapido in my 2.4. I only have a few hours of printing on it because I am trying to work out a few bugs in the config and macro files.
That being said, since I am utilizing an SSR for the bed heat, I then utilize the "bed heater" outputs on my Octopus for the Rapido. It was a simple remapping of the pins. My Rapido goes from room temp to 225C in about 47 seconds.

 

[Loughfad]

I have the Rapido in my 2.4. I only have a few hours of printing on it because I am trying to work out a few bugs in the config and macro files.
That being said, since I am utilizing an SSR for the bed heat, I then utilize the "bed heater" outputs on my Octopus for the Rapido. It was a simple remapping of the pins. My Rapido goes from room temp to 225C in about 47 seconds.

Hi, so would it just be as simple as swapping the connectors on the board around, and then swapping the pin map in config file?

 

[m00dawg]

Yeah switching the heater outputs is highly advised. I kinda think it should be that way normally. The LDO method of doing that is here: https://docs.ldomotors.com/en/voron/voron2/kit-errata

I haven't pushed it into high gear but the Rapido and Bondtech CHT seem to be a pretty good match. I'm quite happy with the results so far!

 

[mggevaer]

I have a Revo, Rapido and had a Dragon. Of those 3 the Dragon was hands down the worst, so I'm not going to bother talking about it. But the Rapido perform exactly like the Revo. There are claims the Revo has higher quality and I initially found this to be true. Then I realised it was because the slicer was limiting speed due to the flow rate limit. Once I used my Revo profile with Rapido, I literally could not see a difference in quality.

Then there is the fact that you can get a higher temperature heater core for Rapido and use the ever popular V6 nozzles (hello CHT) and IMO you have a significantly better option with the Rapido. My Revo isn't getting much use anymore because I can get the same quality at low speed with Rapido and I can get high print speeds using a V6 CHT nozzle

The only advantage of the Revo is nozzle change, something I don't do often and with the Rapido and my (tiny) torque wrench I really don't have any problems with the procedure.

Hey @jovdvyver, what made the dragon hotend the worst option?